Contradiction in al dawlah al makiyyah

[saad234]

In al-Dawlat al-Makkiyyah and its footnotes, Ahmad Rida Khan addresses the belief that the Prophet ﷺ was granted knowledge equal to Allah (in full detail and without any exceptions). He considers whether this belief – i.e. that the Prophet ﷺ possesses complete knowledge of everything known to Allah, including the full details of Allah’s essence and attributes – is kufr or not?

In one place (in his footnotes to al-Dawlat al-Makkiyyah), he defends this belief from the charge of kufr. He refutes Mulla ‘Ali al-Qari’s assertion that it constitutes obvious kufr by consensus. Ahmad Rida Khan claims that some “saints” held this view. He disagrees with it, deeming it an error, but claims that it should not be considered disbelief because some “saints” held this view and they acknowledged the Prophet’s ﷺ knowledge is contingent as opposed to Allah’s (which is eternal). In his opinion, the mere fact that it is rationally impossible is also not a basis for deeming it to be kufr. [See Excerpt One below] 

Kiya yeh durust hai AlaHazrat ne kaha k Allah k barabar ilm khena kufr ni hai? Likin dursri jaga par 

But then, in a different section of the same work, Ahmad Rida Khan explains the concept of “‘Ilm Mutlaq Tafsili,” which he says belongs exclusively to Allah. “‘Ilm Mutlaq Tafsili” means complete and detailed knowledge of all things that can possibly be known, a quality that he says cannot be affirmed for any creature. After saying ‘Ilm Mutlaq Tafsili belongs exclusively to Allah (and is negated for creation), he says: “Everything we just mentioned is established from the din by necessity whereby anyone who rejects any of it has rejected the din.” [See Excerpt Two below]

He further says that to claim encompassing knowledge like Allah is kufr. [See Excerpt Three below] He further says: “As for ‘all’ in the sense of actual encompassment of all things known to Allah in detail, we have informed you that it is undoubtedly and definitively impossible for creation, rationally and scripturally.” [See Excerpt Four below]

Hence, in one place he claims equating the Prophet’s ﷺ knowledge with Allah’s (in terms of quantity) is not kufr. In another place, he says it is kufr. Which is it? This is not a minor contradiction. If something is ma’lum min al-din bi ‘l-darurah, then to believe it is not kufr is itself kufr, as Ahmad Rida Khan and Barelwis are well aware.

A request to Barelwis to resolve this contradiction.

Ab jawab dain ap log

[MuhammedAli]

https://archive.org/details/al_daulat_ul_makiyyah/page/n41/mode/1up?view=theater

Page 42/47, read again. Show me where he wrote, what he wrote, what the contradiction is. And i will respond. I cant read Arabic. 

[MuhammedAli]

I am confident you didn't understand what he wrote. Quote the words u think contradict  each other. You're Deobandi and unlikely you can put aside your Deobandi brain washing aside n read what he wrote. There is Deobandi meaning of words, i.e. ma kana wama yakoon, n their is Islamic meaning n understanding. 

In deobandi religion these words r about unlimited knowledge of Allah. In Islam these words are not inclusive of imkanaat, mumkinaat, muhallaat. ma kana wama yakoon are about wuqu'aat as the words themselves denote. 

I advise you to read the book, leave ur brainwashed brain out of the book, n try again. 

After i left Deobandism two decades ago, i also kept reading Deobandism into Sunni books. I struggled to understand Ad Dawlatul Makkiyyah too. It was third time reading it that it began to seriously make sense to me.  Befre that i was, WHAT RUBBISH IS THIS, WHAT RUBBISH IS HE TALKING TALKING ABOUT. Go back to drawing board n start again if u were not copy pasting. Ifu were copy pasting than keep at it. 

[MuhammedAli]

Jahan say copy paste keeya heh un ko kaho pehlay parna seekh lenh. Phir peren. 

--------------------

One is jami ilm illahi which inclusive of wuqu'aat, mumkinaat, imkanaat n muhallaat.

One is jami ilm ma kana wama yakoon  joh tamam ilm wuquaat ko geray huway heh. Yeh wohi ilm heh jissay al kalam nay lawh al mafooz mein likha, poocha kia likhoon, jawaban, jo ho chuka, jo hoga. Yehni jami ilm ma kana wama yakoon yehni wuquaat ka ilm, yehni jis nay roz awal say roz akhar taq jo kuch hona heh.

Shirk fil ilm makhlooq mein aisi barabari heh kay zarra ka farq nah rahay. Yehni joh kamil ilm aur jistera Allah wasteh mano wohi ilm ussi tera makhlooq wasteh mano. Yeh Shirk Kufr kesay? 

Edited 22 دسمبر 2023 by MuhammedAli

[MuhammedAli]

Janab mein nay pari heh, ala hazrat ki kitab mein kohi contradiction nahin. 

Deobandi jhoot bolta heh. Ala hazrat nay kaheen bi jami ilm e illahi rasoolAllah wasteh sabat nahin keeya. Deobandi apna uqabir  ki tara doka djjal aur iblees shaytaniat mein shikast deh raha.

Yeh Hussain Ahmad Tandavi , Khalil Ambethvi, manzoor nomani, abdul shakoor lakhnavi, anwar shah kashmiri dajjali, abdullah darkhawasti jaisay Kafiroon ka shaytani faiz heh is article kay author ko. Lehaza ham shikast tasleem kar letay hen. Jab in ko haya nah rahay toh jaho jo kar saktay ho karo. 

Allah tala Kafiroon ka saath nahin deta. 

Edited 22 دسمبر 2023 by MuhammedAli

[saad234]

21 hours ago, MuhammedAli said:

https://archive.org/details/al_daulat_ul_makiyyah/page/n41/mode/1up?view=theater

Page 42/47, read again. Show me where he wrote, what he wrote, what the contradiction is. And i will respond. I cant read Arabic. 

I can't also read arabic i will link the post read it and answer me back. I couldn't understand what is jami ilm alahi. also the pages you gave me are talking about that same thing that i've mentioned https://barelwism.wordpress.com/2023/07/26/is-equating-the-prophets-ﷺ-knowledge-to-allahs-knowledge-kufr-ahmad-rida-khans-contradiction-in-al-dawlat-al-makkiyyah/

21 hours ago, MuhammedAli said:

https://archive.org/details/al_daulat_ul_makiyyah/page/n41/mode/1up?view=theater

Page 42/47, read again. Show me where he wrote, what he wrote, what the contradiction is. And i will respond. I cant read Arabic. 

Are they mentioning the same thing you said?

 

In one place (in his footnotes to al-Dawlat al-Makkiyyah), he defends this belief from the charge of kufr. He refutes Mulla ‘Ali al-Qari’s assertion that it constitutes obvious kufr by consensus. Ahmad Rida Khan claims that some “saints” held this view. He disagrees with it, deeming it an error, but claims that it should not be considered disbelief because some “saints” held this view and they acknowledged the Prophet’s ﷺ knowledge is contingent as opposed to Allah’s (which is eternal). In his opinion, the mere fact that it is rationally impossible is also not a basis for deeming it to be kufr. [See Excerpt One below]
 and this contradict each other. But then, in a different section of the same work, Ahmad Rida Khan explains the concept of “‘Ilm Mutlaq Tafsili,” which he says belongs exclusively to Allah. “‘Ilm Mutlaq Tafsili” means complete and detailed knowledge of all things that can possibly be known, a quality that he says cannot be affirmed for any creature. After saying ‘Ilm Mutlaq Tafsili belongs exclusively to Allah (and is negated for creation), he says: “Everything we just mentioned is established from the din by necessity whereby anyone who rejects any of it has rejected the din.” [See Excerpt Two below]

[saad234]

does prophet ﷺ have complete knowledge of Allah's attribute or not?

[MuhammedAli]

Jami means all. Ilm means knowledge. Allah means illahi. All knowledge of Allah. 

[MuhammedAli]

There is nothing in book of Imam Ahmad Raza alayhi rahma which contradicts what he believes.

Knowledgebof Allahs essence n attributes is la mahdood ie unlimited hence unlimited cannot be grasped by limited.

 

[MuhammedAli]

10 hours ago, saad234 said:

does prophet ﷺ have complete knowledge of Allah's attribute or not?

On page 44 of Urdu u can see that Imam Ahmad Raza rahimullah alayhi tala has stated essence n attributes of Allah are lamahdood/ghayr-muntahi ie unlimited. On page 45 he says no creation can know unlimited n gives examples  .  On page 46 he clearly says prohets n righteous cannot have all knowledge of Allahs essence n attributes but they according to their rank can have knowledge n it increases. N they never become capable of knowing everything about Allahs essence n attributes. 

[MuhammedAli]

Ok. I finally figured why deobandi is saying Imam Ahmad Raza rahimullah established Allah's knowledge for prophet of Allah.

Edited 22 دسمبر 2023 by MuhammedAli

[MuhammedAli]

I had misunderstood what Imam wrote. I need to clarify. 

Edited 22 دسمبر 2023 by MuhammedAli

[MuhammedAli]

I will write response to Deobandi article in due time. He is either distorting  or has misunderstood. Misunderstood is possibility n greater chance of it as i have misunderstood it initially while i was reading it. 

It is a technical book n imam doesn't always clearly doesn't specify his objective. Scholars will find it easy to understand but layman will not.

For now all u need to know is that imam wrote anyone who ascribes Allah's unlimited knowledge to a creation he commits kufr/shirk akbar. Allah's names n essence is unlimited n no one not even the prophets including our prophet or Awliyah or Saliheen can know Him as He is they only know bits n their knowledge increases of Tawheed as they progress their stations but they will never come to know Unlimited Him. 

[MuhammedAli]

Imam did not say ilm mutlaq tafseeli belongs to Allah . Ilm mutlaq tafseeli is what is encapsuled in ayah, Allah Knows every thing, ie shai/thing. He than goes mention what is excluded from shai n that is mumkinaat, imkanaat, muhallaat, n knowledge of essence n names of Allah. He was excluding lamuntahi/ghayr-mahdood from ilmi mutlaq tafseeli but Deobandi is saying he included it in. 

I will write comprehensive reply but i have pointed out the error. 

To say Allah's knowledge is of and limited to ilm mutlaq tafseeli (limited to general details) is major Kufr n Shirk. This is creations knowledge. Shirk because Allah has been made equal to creation in His knowledge. Normally Shirk is to make creation equal to Allah's knowledge. 

Edited 29 دسمبر 2023 by MuhammedAli

[saad234]

2 hours ago, MuhammedAli said:

I will write response to Deobandi article in due time. He is either distorting  or has misunderstood. Misunderstood is possibility n greater chance of it as i have misunderstood it initially while i was reading it. 

It is a technical book n imam doesn't always clearly doesn't specify his objective. Scholars will find it easy to understand but layman will not.

For now all u need to know is that imam wrote anyone who ascribes Allah's unlimited knowledge to a creation he commits kufr/shirk akbar. Allah's names n essence is unlimited n no one not even the prophets including our prophet or Awliyah or Saliheen can know Him as He is they only know bits n their knowledge increases of Tawheed as they progress their stations but they will never come to know Unlimited Him. 

yes please write it it will be easy to understand

[saad234]

Ali bhai hme ilm al ghayb ki categories ki daleel kahan k milti hai jaisay ilm sa'a, kulli mutanahi, ghayr mutaanahi wgera

[saad234]

kiya ilm e ghayb ki categories mumkin hain ya nahi?

Just now, saad234 said:

kiya ilm e ghayb ki categories mumkin hain ya nahi?

mene suna hai k mumkin hi ni hain

[saad234]

1 hour ago, saad234 said:

kiya ilm e ghayb ki categories mumkin hain ya nahi?

mene suna hai k mumkin hi ni hain

aur kin kin ulama ne divide kiya hai ilm e ghayb ko.

[saad234]

Explaining the terms: Ilm ul Ghayb is: 1. Intrinsic (ذاتی): "Intrinsic" means not granted by anyone; if the mention of giving is added, then it will no longer be Ilm of the Ghayb.

 

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2. Pre-Eternal (ازلی): Therefore, the knowledge which is حادث (Non - Eternal) cannot be called Ilm of Ghayb. 3. Encompassing Universals: The term "كلي حاوي" implies that all Ghayb. Hence, anyone who attributes “any” ILM of Ghayb to creation has committed sareeh shirk.

 

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[saad234]

i mean what proof do you have for classification of kulli mutanahi and ghayr mutanahi

 

[MuhammedAli]

20 hours ago, saad234 said:

Explaining the terms: Ilm ul Ghayb is: 1. Intrinsic (ذاتی): "Intrinsic" means not granted by anyone; if the mention of giving is added, then it will no longer be Ilm of the Ghayb.

 

1

 

1

 

3

 

 

2. Pre-Eternal (ازلی): Therefore, the knowledge which is حادث (Non - Eternal) cannot be called Ilm of Ghayb. 3. Encompassing Universals: The term "كلي حاوي" implies that all Ghayb. Hence, anyone who attributes “any” ILM of Ghayb to creation has committed sareeh shirk.

 

1

 

 

 

3

 

160

 

 

 

Apply this definition on, 72:26/27, and tell me if above definition is correct, He the Alim ul-Ghayb gives His Ghayb to none except a chosen Messenger. Tell me if the definition is correct. Allah says I give Ghayb. Deobandi says what Allah gives is not Ghayb.

Wama huwa alal ghaybi bi-Dhaneen. Surah Taqweer  He is not miser/stingy with Ghayb. IF zameer of HUWA/He/he returns to Allah, than Allah gives freely without being stingy. Who does He give Ghayb ... none except a chosen Messenger. IF zameer huwa returns to the Messenger than he gives ghayb freely to his Ummatis without holding it back. Question is how can he give Ghayb when he doesnt know it himself. I say both are correct and in agreement with jawami al-kalim nature of Quran.

One who denies Ilm ghayb of the Messenger (sallallahu alayhi wa aalihi was'sallam) is KAFIR. One who calls this belief Shirk is also Kafir. One who calls this belief heretical/misguidance is also a Kafir. One who promotes it, defends it, and supports it is also Kafir.

[MuhammedAli]

17 hours ago, saad234 said:

i mean what proof do you have for classification of kulli mutanahi and ghayr mutanahi

 

Mutanahi and ghayb mutanahi. Mutanahi is limited and ghayr mutanahi is unlimited.

Surah Ikhlas - As-Samad i.e. eternal, never-ending, everlasting. And laysaka mithli shai'in. Us jaisi kohi cheez nahin. Allah's Zaat/Essence and Sifaat/attributes are UNLIMITED.

Allah ki zaat o sifaat limited nahin. Misaal lenh. Aik glass jis mein paani dalen to barr jahay. Keun? Glass ki capacity limited heh. Keun? Us ki zaat hi aisi heh is wasteh limited heh. Glass ki tara har makhlooq limited zaat kay lehaz say. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala unlimited heh zaat mein to jo sifaat us say mutasif hen sab unlimited hen. Aur makhlooq limited heh.

Ilm Ghayb ki categories ki divisions ka suboot jis zaat ka Ilm Ghayb heh us ki zaat say milta heh.

Makhlooq limited heh. Insaan ki zaat wa sifaat limited hen. RasoolAllah limited hen keun kay makhlooq hen. RasoolAllah ka ilm e Ghayb Allah nay deeya, yehni, Atahi. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala ki zaat/sifaat Zaati hen yehni kissi aur nay Allah ko aur us ki sifaat ko wujud/existance mein nahin laya. Yeh us ki apni hen. Aur Allah ka Ilm ghayb bi Allah ka apna/zaati heh yehni kissi aur nay Allah ko Ghayb ka ilm nahin deeya.

Ilm Ghayb Allah nay aik hadd mein RasoolAllah ko deeya, yehni, limited, ya baaz/kuch. Allah makhlooq ko bey-hadd deh bi nahin sakta keun kay makhlooq mein bey-hadd ki qudrat hi nahin. Agar aap glass mein aik jag ka pani dalen toh glass itna hi pani leh ga jis ki us ki hadd heh. joh hadd say bahir heh wo glass say nikal jahay ga. insaan aur Nabi in mein bi bey-hadd ki qudrat nahin Allah aisa kaam hi nahin karta joh us ki shaan kay layk nah ho yehni bey-hadd ilm dalay us mein jis ki hadd ho aur bey-hadd par qudrat nah ho.

Kulli, every/all, yeh technically Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) ki zaat sifaat wasteh istimal nahin hota agar ho to phir yeh unlimited ki taraf lot-ta heh. Kulli aam tor par RasoolAllah kay ilm ghayb wasteh istimal hota heh jab batana yeh maqsood ho keh, RasoolAllah ko tamam al-lawl al-mafooz ka ilm ghayb Allah nay deeya. Agar kulli ko ulimited/ghayr-mutanahi ki taraf lotaya jahay to aisa ilm ghayb rasoolAllah wasteh manna saree shirk/kufr heh.

RasoolAllah ka jism shareef rooh/soul mubarak Allah nay bana-hay aur un ka waqia hona aisay aaik waqt mein huwa jis say pehlay nah thay is ko HADIS kehtay hen. Hadis bil muqabil Qadeem heh. Qadeem Allah heh keun kay Qadeem istilah mein ussay kehtay hen jis ki kabi-bi-shoruwaat nah huwi ho aur hamesha say mojood ho. Is lehaz say RasoolAllah ka ilm ghayb Hadis heh keun kay zaat bi hadis aur joh sifaat is say mutasif hen woh bi hadis, aur ilm sift heh. Allah ta'ala ka ilm ghayb Qadeem heh, keun keh zaat qadeem, sifaat qadeem, aur joh in say mutasif woh bi qadeem.

Al-Hasil Ghayb ki divisions ka subut, jis zaat ka ilm ghayb heh, us ko analyze kar kay nikala ja sakta heh. Yeh feham Tawheed aqli heh aur in divisions ko qubul keeyeh baghayr kohi Musalman nahin. Yeh Tawheed ka fundamental knowledge heh aap ko seekhna cha-yeh.

Mein aap ko apna number message kar doon ga jab kohi zeroorat ho ya kohi masla idhar pesh ho toh post kar kay mujjay whatsApp par message kar deeya keren mein check kar kay jawab likh deeya karoon ga.

Abhi mein aik aur masla par busy hoon. itna waqt nahin milta kay website par aya karoon.

[MuhammedAli]

On 12/27/2023 at 8:42 AM, saad234 said:

kiya ilm e ghayb ki categories mumkin hain ya nahi?

mene suna hai k mumkin hi ni hain

Jo kehta heh ilm ghayb ki categories momkin hi nahin ussay Tawheed ka pata nahin aur ghaliban abhi taq Musalman hi nahin huwa. Mein nay wazahat kar di heh pichli post mein. Ilm Ghayb ki daleelen bi pesh kar deenh. aur divisions ka farq keun aur kesay, kistera hota mukhtasar andaaz mein kar deeya. Tafseel parni ho toh English mein articles hen meray in classifications kay mozoo par.

[saad234]

3 hours ago, MuhammedAli said:

Jo kehta heh ilm ghayb ki categories momkin hi nahin ussay Tawheed ka pata nahin aur ghaliban abhi taq Musalman hi nahin huwa. Mein nay wazahat kar di heh pichli post mein. Ilm Ghayb ki daleelen bi pesh kar deenh. aur divisions ka farq keun aur kesay, kistera hota mukhtasar andaaz mein kar deeya. Tafseel parni ho toh English mein articles hen meray in classifications kay mozoo par.

can u link that articles

 

[MuhammedAli]

16 hours ago, saad234 said:

can u link that articles

 

 

I will find the rest n post links.